Georgina Pazcoguin: Going Rogue in the Ballet World and Beyond

interviewed & written by Chloe Sun, assisted by Sylvie Lam

Buy Georgina’s book | Georgina’s Instagram, Twitter, & Website | Final Bow for Yellowface: Website & Instagram

Georgina Pazcoguin is breaking barriers and challenging the status quo of the historically whitewashed, exclusive world of ballet. An award-winning dancer and the first Asian American female soloist for the New York City Ballet, she recently released a memoir, Swan Dive: The Making of A Rogue Ballerina, which explores her journey as a professional dancer in the world of elite ballet. At the same time, Georgina is involved with activism, co-founding "Final Bow for Yellowface" with Phil Chan, a campaign that combats Asian stereotypes in ballet productions. “Final Bow” has amassed support from some of the biggest dance companies and soloists in the world, and continues to lead projects uplifting Asian contributors to the dance world, like 10,000 Dreams, a virtual choreography festival, and an Asian choreographic incubator. Her talents also expand beyond ballet, having performed and sung on Broadway in shows including On the Town and Cats, and featured on the 2019 hit show Fosse/Verdon.

Especially with this past year being full of negativity with the Atlanta shootings and the rise in anti-Asian hate in general, is there a certain mindset that motivates you to keep pushing for progress? 

That connects well to my book, Swan Dive. Swan Dive is what motivates me to be in my space. My memoir focuses on my story as the first Asian American woman to ever be promoted out of the corps of New York city ballet. That is a story that I truly feel might have been lost, had I not had the opportunity to share it in this particular way. I know that there is this feeling that it's controversial, but I think the underlying themes of the book are about grabbing hold of one's autonomy. That's something that I haven't always had in the ballet world. I hope that the younger generation will gravitate towards Swan Dive, because I want to share this love of ballet with your generation, a generation that might not necessarily be steeped in ballet culture. It's not old and stuffy—dance is such a universal language. We've seen that on platforms like TikTok. We need Gen Z and youth to want to have an interest in ballet for it to survive.

So that's where my passion comes from. I love it so much. Yes, it is flawed. And I am flawed. I'm real. I am someone that you can contact and have an interaction with. I hope that when you sit in the audience, you feel like you are represented on stage. That's where my fight comes from. Today was the first day back at New York City Ballet since the release of Swan Dive. And it was weird. There were people who didn't want to talk to me, but then there were also colleagues that as soon as I walked in the room, came up and hugged me. That was so moving, and they did it publicly in front of everyone. Yes, I share my story, but it's bigger than that. I want to tell a generation that follows me that I am not closing the door behind me. The reason that I am doing this is not just for me. It's for you guys. If you guys are inspired to dance but find yourself in a space where you don't see yourself represented, advocate for yourself.

“I hope that when you sit in the audience, you feel like you are represented on stage. That's where my fight comes from.”

You talk about having to carve your own path because no one before you has looked like you, calling yourself the “rogue ballerina.” Having gone through all that, and having learned to have this confidence in yourself, what would you say to your younger self that didn't have that confidence? 

Who knows who they are and what they are or what they stand for at the age of 17? I knew I wanted to be a ballerina and what I examine in myself in Swan Dive is that I am completely flawed. I tried so hard to assimilate. There are stories about how I'm just a klutz and it's a miracle that I'm a ballerina, and how I tried to be something that I was inherently not. So, no, I didn't have it all together. I still don't have it all together. But I am much more clear on where I am. It took me up to this day today to find new clarity. 

In the past couple of years, I was able to articulate things in a safe space while connecting with Phil (Chan, co-founder of Final Bow for Yellowface), as we developed Final Bow for Yellowface’s language and best practices. Only in recent years have I been able to truly zoom out and realize there's a whole other level that some of my colleagues did not experience just because I am multicultural. They are the accepted norm in the ballet world. So my advice for a younger generation, and if I were speaking to myself is that—and especially young men are included in this—from the female perspective, is to trust your intuition. And for men, however that manifests in your psyche and your body, trust those inner signals, because they're usually 1000% right. 

I knew that there was something wrong when I was taking part in yellowface. There was something in me that was always rebelling, but I didn't have the words or the space or the safety to articulate that at the time. We move so fast through our seasons, so I had little time to reflect and understand what this discomfort was. So take time to unpack, find someone who you feel safe speaking to, and voice your concerns. Voice them not from a space of you did this, but try approaching someone like, I'm feeling this way. Can you help me understand why you're feeling this way? And if it comes from something like a micro-aggression, be like, I'm sure you didn't intend to do this, but this is how this is making me feel. It has taken me so long to find the right language to have these tough conversations, but in the span of our teenage years, it's okay to not understand, but trust your inherent intuition. 

Final Bow for Yellowface has been doing incredible work, especially right now with the rise of anti-Asian hate. Notably, after the Atlanta shootings, a lot of the ballet community turned to you for ways to support Asian Americans, and despite processing that yourself as an Asian American, you and your co-creator, Phil Chan, did a great job being that voice. What are the ways that stick out to you that you've seen Final Bow create change so far and what work do you still want to see being done? What’s in the future for Final Bow?

I don't think that Phil and I ever imagined that we would have been this safe space for a broader AAPI community to come to. I can't reiterate enough that that's why Phil and I work so well as a working partnership—we are people of action. To answer your question, I think one of the ways that we've been able to inspire others is to jump in on the action part of activism. That can take on so many different iterations—for instance, I suffer from crowd anxiety, so I'm not a huge protestor, but I can do things behind the scenes. I can get on a call and have really great one-on-one with people, and we've also been able to consolidate a lot of conversations that were already being had within the ballet community. There is now an Asian American opera alliance that has been birthed out of the activism of Final Bow for Yellowface. We love that. I feel so proud when people feel inspired enough to take on their own charge - in their own aspect of the arts, in their own aspect of their lives.

That's what I'm most proud of right now at this moment with our work with Final Bow. We have grand plans. I don't know if we're quite ready to announce it, but we have ideas for a larger foundation that's going to inspire new creative works within the dance space, with all-Asian creative teams—that is sort of unheard of at the moment. We want to imbue the world from all aspects from lighting design, to costuming, to makeup artists, to composition and really, truly, leave our mark as the Asian American community and within the Asian community and dance. 

“I feel so proud when people feel inspired enough to take on their own charge - in their own aspect of the arts, in their own aspect of their lives.”

Photo by Matthew Karas

From my personal experience, when competing or during rehearsal, I’d experience micro-aggressions like instructors saying to open my eyes more, or they’d ask me to wear makeup that makes my eyes bigger, and seeing the Chinese choreography during the Nutcracker productions would be very uncomfortable to watch. In a past interview, you mentioned that you wish you had an older Asian dancer to turn to and talk through your experiences facing discrimination as a young dancer. Do you feel like you're becoming that for younger dancers now?

I would hope that that's what I could be for a younger generation. I'm so sorry that you had to experience those aggressions, and I resonate with that—having been told to make my makeup look “less Oriental.” Knowing that, I am multicultural and of mixed race, so there's a part of me that does have privilege. There's a part of me that can sit here and pass. But the second I put my makeup on, it's very apparent. I am an Asian woman and it's certainly a wild experience. Not to discount the Asian men who have broken glass ceilings prior to me, but it's a different experience. There are so many more women than men. The inherent competition of ballet when it comes to women is that we've been pitted against each other. It's fair to say that women have been pitted against each other in society broadly, especially in the ballet world where it is so hyper-competitive.

There's so many subversive messages, and they were very impactful—I would walk down the halls of The School of American Ballet and I would see Darcy Kissler and all of these white women. I’d see a picture of Maria Tallchief and be like, it’s still not me. In my experience at New York City Ballet, they've struggled to place me. I would argue that that's possibly a flaw within our ballet world in that New York City Ballet has always wanted to replace someone with something, like oh, you look like this person physically. So most people fit in there. I look like no one that's ever existed at New York City Ballet. So they're confused. And I'm like, use your imagination. Look at me. See my talent. So in a lot of ways, it was a very eye-opening situation that I was going to have to work harder, be very, very clear in what I wanted, and advocate for it, because they inherently were not going to see me as the soft, gentle woman, the queen, the classic ballerina.

I have a very fiery personality in life. I can only stand in my truth and I can only continue speaking up when I sense that something is wrong. That has ruffled a lot of feathers, but when we talk about placing boundaries, that's where my inner strength comes from. No longer am I going to let those micro-aggressions or flat-out aggressions fly in a studio. I'm just overwhelmed with the capacity for humanity to change, and I think there's a power in the fact that we have an infinite capacity for love. In the midst of this “Stop Asian Hate” movement, I do want to keep reminding people that although change doesn't happen like a flick of a light switch, we still can make strides forward. We hold some compassion for each other in the midst of this evolution.

“I was going to have to work harder, be very, very clear in what I wanted, and advocate for it, because they inherently were not going to see me as the soft, gentle woman, the queen, the classic ballerina.”

In a previous interview you mentioned walking into the New York City Ballet building, and plastered on the building was an artwork by Asian artist Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya that said “We Belong Here,” referring to Asian Americans. This project was a city-wide response to the rise in anti-Asian hate. You saw that as the bare minimum, and while that was proudly displayed on the outside of the building, you want to see that same change happening inside the building, too. Seeing some of your colleagues embrace you today while others turned away, what changes do you think New York City Ballet needs to make to reflect that artwork? 

I think first and foremost, it's going to take some acknowledgement from the inner institution. I know that it's happening behind closed doors, but it's time for us to make these small changes. It's a time for action now for them. The murals are beautiful and all over Lincoln Center, but I would love to see more Asian American leadership within the family of the Lincoln Center. We are juggling so much with the raging pandemic. What I hope is this is acknowledgement that we can't go back. There is no going back to normal, not in any sense of the word. Where I can speak for myself is that I'm coming out of this incubation time of not being able to do what I love, and as a completely changed individual. I hope that the leadership within Lincoln Center and within the City Ballet feels the same way. We'll start to have more uncomfortable conversations with those who don't want it to change, and it's okay to have that perspective, but let's have a constructive conversation about it. Let's not ignore it. My biggest fear about Swan Dive coming out is that the company or colleagues will try to ignore it. I don't think that they can any longer. I don't think that I can be made invisible any longer. 

That's a powerful thing and I hope it inspires other individuals within the company to seek their truth and leadership to feel energized, because change can happen. There is a different way of doing things. Though we've done it one way for 400 years, we must evolve. That's where, across the board, between people who agree with me and the people who don't agree with me, that's where we have common ground. We want ballet to survive into the future. To do that, we have to make changes for the people in the audience to feel included in what we present on stage. 

“I can only stand in my truth and I can only continue speaking up when I sense that something is wrong. That has ruffled a lot of feathers, but when we talk about placing boundaries, that's where my inner strength comes from. No longer am I going to let those micro-aggressions or flat-out aggressions fly in a studio.”

Outside of ballet, there are so many amazing things you’ve done with Broadway and TV. With Broadway and TV, what things do you take from ballet and apply to those other worlds? 

I want to be able to impact across different medias and platforms. In the ballet world, one person decides my fate, and I don't have autonomy, but in the worlds of Broadway, film, and TV, visibility matters. So I need the help of people who support me in that too. We all need to lift each other higher, and that's how we will continue to have shifting when you space for Asian American faces to be leading roles in film and on Broadway and not just supporting characters. 

There's so many qualities that we were taught as young humans standing at the bar. There's the idea of commitment. There's courage to try, courage to fail. There is the practice of ritual and how even when I have a bad show, I know I can get up. I can get up the next day and try again. There's a specificity needed to articulate ideas and movement through the art of ballet. Because you can't use your voice. That is something that I'm also carried into - this curiosity to understand the specificity of each different performing art that I'm in. When I was injured, I couldn't dance. So I took on-screen acting classes, and it was just this idea…  I've been so used to looking up to the fourth ring, and all of a sudden I had to be in here. I still imagine it like a little person on the stage. It's super small. 

I'm an ever curious person. I don't think I'll ever want to stop learning new ways of expressing. What these other mediums have really made clear to me is that I love telling stories. So I will follow the path. That'll help me tell as many stories as I can, and hopefully my body will hang in for the ride. 

“There's so many qualities that we were taught as young humans standing at the bar. There's the idea of commitment. There's courage to try, courage to fail. There is the practice of ritual and how even when I have a bad show, I know I can get up. I can get up the next day and try again.”

What’s next for you?

Of course, my book Swan Dive is out and available for sale. I'm also curating an evening of dance at Little Island Festival, which is on August 25th. It's the first time that I'm getting to show the world what I think is important in the world of dance right now. Then coming up in fall for dance, there will be a world premiere called Sweet Gwen Suite, which is going to be absolutely epic, and kind of a foray back into the theater world that I love. So there's some things coming up, and then I will be on stage at city ballet!